Discussion:
Zoned Commands ZBC/ZAC, Shingled SMR drives, ZFS
(too old to reply)
grarpamp
2015-03-12 21:19:21 UTC
Permalink
Here is a performance review of the ST8000AS0002 non-SED
"drive managed" model (caveat your actual expected usage).
http://www.storagereview.com/seagate_archive_hdd_review_8tb
You can also find these drives inside the STDT8000100 external
USB unit for a bit more at $300.
Shehbaz Jaffer
2015-03-24 12:48:09 UTC
Permalink
Hi,

I was wondering what cost advantage do SMR drive provide as compared to
normal CMR drive?

8TB SMR drive - $ 260
3TB CMR (Conventional Magnetic Recording drive) - $ 105

Is the 8TB SMR drive that you mentioned in another post on this mailing
list host or drive managed? I was curious to know why freeBSD community
/others should invest into supporting SMR drive? Is the price predicted to
go down further in the future?
Is there any other advantage that SMR drive provide that CMR drives dont?

Thanks!
Post by grarpamp
Here is a performance review of the ST8000AS0002 non-SED
"drive managed" model (caveat your actual expected usage).
http://www.storagereview.com/seagate_archive_hdd_review_8tb
You can also find these drives inside the STDT8000100 external
USB unit for a bit more at $300.
_______________________________________________
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--
Shehbaz Jaffer
MTS | Advanced Technology Group | NetApp
Tom Evans
2015-03-24 16:39:16 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, Mar 24, 2015 at 12:47 PM, Shehbaz Jaffer
Post by Shehbaz Jaffer
Hi,
I was wondering what cost advantage do SMR drive provide as compared to
normal CMR drive?
8TB SMR drive - $ 260
3TB CMR (Conventional Magnetic Recording drive) - $ 105
Purchase price is not irrelevant, but the key benefits are increased
capacity per disk, and reduced power usage per disk and (multiplied by
the increase in capacity) per TB. In other words, they disks consume
less power, you need fewer of them, maybe allowing you to run fewer
servers.

Of course, you also need a mainly read only workload. The RAID rebuild
test from the linked review is *scary*. I wouldn't use these in ZFS
raidz without plenty of disaster recovery testing - how long does it
take to re-silver the pool when you lose a disk and what is the
performance characteristics of the pool whilst it is doing so.

Cheers

Tom
Dale Kline
2015-03-24 17:11:13 UTC
Permalink
READ THE DOCUMENTATION THOROUGHLY on these SMR drives. There are serious WRITE restrictions on these drives because of the overlapping (shingled) tracks. I have read over several times and am still not sure of all of the caveats. As Tom states below, they are to be used mainly in "WRITE ONCE, READ MANY" environments.

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-freebsd-***@freebsd.org [mailto:owner-freebsd-***@freebsd.org] On Behalf Of Tom Evans
Sent: Tuesday, March 24, 2015 12:39 PM
To: Shehbaz Jaffer
Cc: FreeBSD FS; grarpamp; freebsd-***@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Zoned Commands ZBC/ZAC, Shingled SMR drives, ZFS
Post by Shehbaz Jaffer
Hi,
I was wondering what cost advantage do SMR drive provide as compared
to normal CMR drive?
8TB SMR drive - $ 260
3TB CMR (Conventional Magnetic Recording drive) - $ 105
Purchase price is not irrelevant, but the key benefits are increased capacity per disk, and reduced power usage per disk and (multiplied by the increase in capacity) per TB. In other words, they disks consume less power, you need fewer of them, maybe allowing you to run fewer servers.

Of course, you also need a mainly read only workload. The RAID rebuild test from the linked review is *scary*. I wouldn't use these in ZFS raidz without plenty of disaster recovery testing - how long does it take to re-silver the pool when you lose a disk and what is the performance characteristics of the pool whilst it is doing so.

Cheers

Tom
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InterNetX - Juergen Gotteswinter
2015-03-24 17:50:09 UTC
Permalink
The HGST He8 HDDs completed its rebuild in 19 hours and 46 minutes. The
Seagate Archive HDDs completed their rebuild in 57 hours and 13 minutes

this is ... a feature. right?
Post by Dale Kline
READ THE DOCUMENTATION THOROUGHLY on these SMR drives. There are serious WRITE restrictions on these drives because of the overlapping (shingled) tracks. I have read over several times and am still not sure of all of the caveats. As Tom states below, they are to be used mainly in "WRITE ONCE, READ MANY" environments.
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Tuesday, March 24, 2015 12:39 PM
To: Shehbaz Jaffer
Subject: Re: Zoned Commands ZBC/ZAC, Shingled SMR drives, ZFS
Post by Shehbaz Jaffer
Hi,
I was wondering what cost advantage do SMR drive provide as compared
to normal CMR drive?
8TB SMR drive - $ 260
3TB CMR (Conventional Magnetic Recording drive) - $ 105
Purchase price is not irrelevant, but the key benefits are increased capacity per disk, and reduced power usage per disk and (multiplied by the increase in capacity) per TB. In other words, they disks consume less power, you need fewer of them, maybe allowing you to run fewer servers.
Of course, you also need a mainly read only workload. The RAID rebuild test from the linked review is *scary*. I wouldn't use these in ZFS raidz without plenty of disaster recovery testing - how long does it take to re-silver the pool when you lose a disk and what is the performance characteristics of the pool whilst it is doing so.
Cheers
Tom
_______________________________________________
_______________________________________________
http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-fs
Michael Jung
2015-03-24 18:40:12 UTC
Permalink
I understand there to be three different types of SMR drives: Device managed,
Host aware and Host managed.

It is my belief that only 'Device managed' drives are shipping
which any file system can use, but the file system has no mechanisms to
leverage or control the drives behavior hence they are not good candidates
for any RAID like system.

'host aware' or 'host managed' SMR drives open the real possibilities for use
under ZFS and other file systems.

I found these links of interest.

Tim Feldman - Host-Aware SMR - OpenZFS Dev Summit 2014


http://open-zfs.org/w/images/2/2a/Host-Aware_SMR-Tim_Feldman.pdf

http://www.snia.org/sites/default/files/Dunn-Feldman_SNIA_Tutorial_Shingled_Magnetic_Recording-r7_Final.pdf

--mikej

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-freebsd-***@freebsd.org [mailto:owner-freebsd-***@freebsd.org] On Behalf Of InterNetX - Juergen Gotteswinter
Sent: Tuesday, March 24, 2015 1:42 PM
To: FreeBSD FS; freebsd-***@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Zoned Commands ZBC/ZAC, Shingled SMR drives, ZFS

The HGST He8 HDDs completed its rebuild in 19 hours and 46 minutes. The
Seagate Archive HDDs completed their rebuild in 57 hours and 13 minutes

this is ... a feature. right?
Post by Dale Kline
READ THE DOCUMENTATION THOROUGHLY on these SMR drives. There are serious WRITE restrictions on these drives because of the overlapping (shingled) tracks. I have read over several times and am still not sure of all of the caveats. As Tom states below, they are to be used mainly in "WRITE ONCE, READ MANY" environments.
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Tuesday, March 24, 2015 12:39 PM
To: Shehbaz Jaffer
Subject: Re: Zoned Commands ZBC/ZAC, Shingled SMR drives, ZFS
Post by Shehbaz Jaffer
Hi,
I was wondering what cost advantage do SMR drive provide as compared
to normal CMR drive?
8TB SMR drive - $ 260
3TB CMR (Conventional Magnetic Recording drive) - $ 105
Purchase price is not irrelevant, but the key benefits are increased capacity per disk, and reduced power usage per disk and (multiplied by the increase in capacity) per TB. In other words, they disks consume less power, you need fewer of them, maybe allowing you to run fewer servers.
Of course, you also need a mainly read only workload. The RAID rebuild test from the linked review is *scary*. I wouldn't use these in ZFS raidz without plenty of disaster recovery testing - how long does it take to re-silver the pool when you lose a disk and what is the performance characteristics of the pool whilst it is doing so.
Cheers
Tom
_______________________________________________
_______________________________________________
http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-fs
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Shehbaz Jaffer
2015-03-24 18:43:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Jung
'host aware' or 'host managed' SMR drives open the real possibilities for use
under ZFS and other file systems.

Agreed. Probably RAID is not the way to go then. In host managed SMR drives
one could use other form of resiliency (Erasure Codes) rather than RAID. We
do not rebuild the whole disk but probably just a zone of a SMR drive in
case of errors.
Don Lewis
2015-03-24 21:02:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by InterNetX - Juergen Gotteswinter
The HGST He8 HDDs completed its rebuild in 19 hours and 46 minutes. The
Seagate Archive HDDs completed their rebuild in 57 hours and 13 minutes
this is ... a feature. right?
Looks like the HGST He8 drives cost about $600 though ...

The He10 is SMR.
grarpamp
2015-04-08 05:49:35 UTC
Permalink
The only 8T SATA options are:
8T for $675 ($84.38/T) 0F23267, 7.4W max (8k q1)
8T for $270 ($33.75/T) ST8000AS0002, 8.66W max (rand read)
For TB/$ or TB/RU there is no comparison, particularly for "archive" uses.
Going further:
6T for $250 ($41.67/T)
5T for $200 ($40.00/T)
4T for $140 ($35.00/T)
3T for $100 ($33.33/T)
go any smaller and the dollar, RU, and watt all fail to yield.
For other comparison:
SSD:
1T SSD $350 ($350.00/T)
Tape (excl drives and changers):
10T 3592JD $410 ($41.00/T)
2.5T LTO6 $23 ($17.20/T)
1.5T LTO5 $23 ($15.33/T)

The DM drive seems priced reasonably given 8T is largest drive on
market.

Prices on same density always go down, storage density always goes
up with a new price attached. SMR is the first real example of a
"feature" drive.

Want to guess where the 8T and 10T HA (performance mitigatable)
drives will price out?

usb-to-sata bridge not working...
There are stories both ways, none of them really trustable.
Doesn't matter now that the second batch of native SATA drives is
out.

The StorageReview tests were made with the drives in a NAS box.
The tests have obvious caveats depending on your usage. A generic
raid-1 rebuild is theory equivalent to a whole disk sequential dd.
The drive spec says you will see avg 150MB/s (~15hr) for that. SR's
NAS is obviously not doing a generic raid-1 rebuild there.

The tech path is "drive managed" --> "host managed" --> "host aware",
better performance mitigation on the right.

Developers can get DM and HA drives from Seagate.

My posts from Feb 26th and Mar 2nd have bunch of info links.
In the links find statements like these:

"ZAC and ZBC command sets cover both Host Aware (HA) and Host Managed
(HM) devices. SMR drives are expected to saturate the HDD market
over the coming years. Without this modification (ZBC command
support), HM will NOT work with traditional filesystems. With this
modification, HA will demonstrate performance and determinism --
as found in non-SMR drives -- in traditional & new applications."

"Seagate manufactures and supports SMR Drive Managed (DM) and SMR
Host Aware (HA) drives. Seagate does not currently manufacture SMR
Host Managed (HM) drives. Seagate has 2 drives shipping that are
SMR-DM. Seagate's new 8TB Archive HDD v2 drive is SMR-HA."

Another link:

http://events.linuxfoundation.org/events/vault
http://events.linuxfoundation.org/sites/events/files/slides/SMR%20in%20Linux%20Systems%20-%20Vault.pdf

Bottom line is that SMR and related tech is here to stay as the
next step in bulk storage and cannot be ignored.


http://ceph.com/
http://www.mkomo.com/cost-per-gigabyte-update

Dieter BSD
2015-03-25 00:44:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by grarpamp
You can also find these drives inside the STDT8000100 external
USB unit for a bit more at $300.
It may or may not be the same. There are stories that it is difficult
or impossible to talk directly to the drives in recent USB units without
the usb-to-sata bridge. I have yet to find a usb-to-sata bridge that
doesn't have problems.
Is the price predicted to go down further in the future?
Disk prices were going down nicely until the great flood. Prices took
over a year to return to pre-flood levels, and have been dropping
*very* slowly since. The M&A activity reduced competition, which
doesn't help. Governments can't be bothered to prohibit anticompetitive
M&A activity. Increases in capacity per drive have slowed, perhaps due
to the same reduction in competition. 3TB drives have been the best
value in TB/$ for nearly 4 years. I bought some 3TB drives last month
for $84.99 each (with free shipping). At the same TB/$ an 8TB drive
should cost $226.64, and a 10TB drive should cost $283.30.

The penguins added a new device manipulation library to support ZBC/ZAC.
There might be things to learn there (mistakes to avoid?).

http://www.zdnet.com/article/hgst-gets-closer-to-shipping-10tb-hdd/
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